The Fate of the Union

[James S]

[randall]

[James S]

With the weapons report this morning my view has begun to change. Iraq has "cooperated" in as much as allowing the inspectors into certain buildings. Iraq hasn't been very ... amiable at all. They continue to play dumb just to prolong things.

But we need proof. Would you like to be prosecuted for murder when there's no direct evidence against you? Maybe you did it, maybe not. We need evidence. I think we're getting close. He has missiles that exceed the 90 mile capability limit that the UN implimented. He has illegally imported missiles and rocket fuel. 1,000 tons of anthrax are unaccounted for. Tens of thousands of tons of chemical weapons are unaccounted for, and we have record of them refining these chemicals and storing them since Clinton bombed Iraq. So far, the only thing that the Iraqi representive has truly said at the UN meeting was that "we are cooporating fullay vith thee UN wepons inspectors" and "Clinton said he destroyed all our weapons, listen to him." Also, Iraq continually accuses the weapons inspectors of being spies when this is so blattanly untrue. They hold back essential records. They just continue to lie and play dumb.

I think that Iraq is definitely hiding devices it should not have. But that doesn't mean we rush into battle. I want to know what they have, where they have it, and how soon they can use it. I do not want to send bombers and troops in blind. We need to go about this intelligently and with international/UN approval, simply so that we don't look like a vendictive cowboy in the wild wild middle east.

There is more at stake regarding losing France and Germany as allies than not having their (lack of a) military backing us up. Much of the US economy is based on exports to and imports from these countries. The same with all of our other allies. The point isn't whether they can support us in a war with Iraq. We don't need the military backing these countries provide. What we need is them as allies, as economic support, as verbal support. These are the nations that make up the United Nations, if we don't have them as allies then where is our place in the United Nations any longer?

[Warren]

My God! So much reading, but I'm not going to argue anymore, I'll have Moose do it.

But does anyone actually think that Iraq has Saturn V and Triton missiles to transport any possible warheads they have? 90% chance it's no. Even if they do have nuclear weapons, it's like having gun powder without the bullet.

And Randall, saying you'd send your child to war to kill and die. I just don't know how to respond to that.

[Jadam]

A Saturn V for a Nuke?????? whats wrong with you.......

Nukes can ride on any kind of missile, and the dominant typ ein the US is the minuteman missile which are pretty cheap to build for the US and the US has ohh around 1000+ of them in storage. Now go look at russia.

[Warren]

Do you really think Iraq has any of

I've been to a nuclear missile silo in Arizona, the thing is GIANT! Many stories tall, and requires basically an entire town underground to operate the thing!

[James S]

Or like the bullet without the gun powder, but your analogy served it's purpose.

The longest range rocket they have that we know about hsa a range of 130 miles. I highly doubt that they have some huge NASA sized rocket that can carry a nuclear weapon (if they even have those, which I highly doubt. I think the most they have is chemical and biological because those are easier to deploy) into outerspace, across the poll, re-enter the atmosphere, and strike a target in America. There are not words to indicate how highly I doubt this "possibility," if one can even call it a possibility. We caught Iraq attempting to smuggle uranium into their country a while ago. It takes a substantial amount of this stuff to make a nuclear weapon, and it costs a great deal. No way they have a nuclear weapon. They have scuds, they probably have chemical weapons, I bet they have biological. But that's the worst they've got, I'm mostly positive.

I would send my children to war, but I'd want to know what we were fighting, why, and where. I'm not going to ship them off simply because we can't account for a few tons of bacteria that we think they had. I want evidence. Not even irrifutable proof, but strong evidence. It's getting close, but it's not there yet.

[randall]

Moose this isn't a trial for Murder. In fact this acts exactly the opposite of a trial. Saddam must prove his innocence by fully disclosing all documents, research, weapons stores, etc. This isn't innocent until proven guilty.

Saddam is REQUIRED to follow those guidelines. So he doesn't have the benefit of innocent until proven guilty. These weren't guidelines imposed by Bush- they are upheld and imposed by the UN (thus the reason for a UN inspection, not a US inspection).

I still don't understand your need to have France and Germanys alliance. Those nutless fucks are doing NOTHING to get Saddam out of power. In a full-blown war situation, whos side do you think they suddenly take? The chips haven't fallen yet, so they have the luxury of being the indecisive fucks of Europe. They are far more dependent on the US and Britain to get shit accomplished than we are dependent on them.

Warren, considering that you are Jewish, the state of Israel does not exactly have a clean record. Months ago, you were all over how "right" Israel was to constantly poke at Palestine, causing unreast and upheaval in the Middle East. So why is it any more of a crime when 3 or 4 Jews are killed with a terrorist bomb, rather than thousands of Americans that taken down in a commercial airliner?

More American civillians have been killed in the last two years due to terrorism, on their own soil, than Israel has seen in the same time period.

I'd prefer not to send my kids to war. But if they don't go to the war, the war will come to us.

And I am not sending my kids out to die. Thats the enemies job.

[Warren]

[Orpe]

[James S]

[randall]

[RICoder]

[RICoder]

[Jadam]