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I'm not voting for Bush

14
44%
5
16%
5
16%
2
6%
0
No votes
1
3%
0
No votes
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No votes
5
16%
 
Total votes : 32


Postby Maf54 » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:03pm

So, since 9/11 happened education isn't important anymore?
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Postby Chad » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:04pm

Don't get me wrong, education is very important... I don't think the world can handle any more stupid people.... Hopefully since the war died down education will become a priority again.
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Postby Brig » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:07pm

Truth is a possession.
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Postby James S » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:15pm

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Postby sponge » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:19pm

holy internets batman.
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Postby Brig » Dec 20, 2003 @ 8:31pm

Truth is a possession.
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Postby Andy » Dec 20, 2003 @ 10:24pm



Read this pdf (granted it was written before the war and consists of back-of-the-napkin calculations, but it seems like they predicted things fairly well). They predict containtment of Iraq was more expensive in both dollars and life, by very significant margins.

I've got things to do right now, but I think if you plug in the real numbers, everything will still hold true. Not to mention, their cost estimate emitted several pro-war cost-factors:

* For example, America consumes something like 11 million barrels of oil a day. Every penny Iraq's oil takes away from the cost of oil is significant.
* Also, I don't think Iraq would have become benign in 30-some years like they figured it would. The next batch of Hussein was even crazier, from what I could see.
* America is almost certainly going to pick up a few billion per annum in trade with Iraq when all is said and done.
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Postby Brig » Dec 21, 2003 @ 3:32am

Though there might be a net gain from the war, it doesn't mean that it was the best course of action. By foregoing a better investment of the money, a loss is incurred because the full value of that capital will not be realized.

The money shouldn't have been taken out of the American economy in the first place. Bush cuts taxes, then turns around and spends us into a deficit. Federal budged deficit projections for 2003 to 2007 forecast 1.7 trillion dollars worth of deficit, with 2.2 trillion dollars already incurred since President Bush took office. That's a total of 3.9 trillion.

We have a massive SEVEN TRILLION DOLLARS worth of public debt.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Who's fixing it? Not Bush. Clark plans to: using the same strategies that brought us the budget surplus we had before Bush entered office.
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Postby RICoder » Dec 21, 2003 @ 6:23am

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Postby Maf54 » Dec 21, 2003 @ 4:46pm

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Postby James S » Dec 21, 2003 @ 7:16pm

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Postby Brig » Dec 21, 2003 @ 7:30pm

Saying that Bush is not a moron is, well, moronic. Ivy league education? He didn't do that on his own merit; it was all courtesy of his old man. The guy's life is a long list of failure, and where he's succeeded it was usually because of a)his dad or b)his dad's friends.

BTW, I'm a moderate.

When one wants to run for office, compromises have to be made to gain popular support. If you don't think the Republicans do this, you're wrong--every politician does it. Clark has changed his opinions, but that just shows that he won't stick with ideas that he doesn't perceive as working.

Is Iraq your only issue? Better yet, is war with Iraq all this country is about? WHAT ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE? Education, civil liberties, the economy? Your interest in our nation shouldn't stop where things stop going boom. If we want to remain the wealthiest nation in the world, we have to secure something other than weapons of mass destruction and evil dictators--we have to secure our economy and our freedom.

Clark didn't lead NATO in the take down Milosevich? Last time I checked--he did.

Where the environment is concerned: politicians say positive things about the environment all the time. Check out George W. Bush's website.

And the environment is important. This isn't just about people chopping down trees. Imagine if every day some guy came by your home and pissed on the walls of your house. How would you react?

It's what happens with air pollution. It stinks, and stains the paint on your house. Air pollution also causes respiratory diseases. These companies are damaging you and keeping a profit. If they're going to do that, you at lease deserve a cut of the money.
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Postby Andy » Dec 21, 2003 @ 10:34pm

You're starting to sound like Jadam, Brig. Bush may have got into Yale on his old man's ticket, but he earned those C's all on his own. Calling Bush a moron wouldn't be entirely unjustified (he is a Christian afterall), but it's not accurate. I'm sure he's at least in the 90th percentile intelligence-wise. Although thats a little low by presidential standards, he's got an edge over the majority of this board.

And Clark is a tool. He "led" a war? I could do that to:<finds highest ranking Air Force/Navy officers in the room> "Draw me up a bombing plan, so I can stamp it."

It also appears that his military record in Kosovo wasn't even very good. He seemed to think things were in Kosovo that weren't there, and that's a much smaller country than Iraq.


Don't make the mistake of percieving Clark as your standard "kick ass and take names" general. He's a politician. Upper-level military, by and large, is little more than an especially dirty form of politics. Generals never have a shortage of work after they retire; when he loses this campaign, he'll probably end up (if he isn't already) on Lockheade-Martin (or whoever makes those cruise missiles) payroll as an "advisor" -- ie he attends a meeting once or twice a year, then collects a 6 figure paycheck.

Furthermore, what argument can be made for the war in Kosovo that can't be made for the war in Iraq? Clark is a hyprocrite on war; he's simply bashing Bush for some easy votes.

But there is a lot to learn about the way Clark approachs problems from analyzing his Kosovo-choices. Conventional suggests a ground-based strike with overwhelming force, supported by air. Clark decided to throw virtually every cruise missile and guided bomb he could get his hands on at it. That, from what I can see, is Clarks' way of "solving" problems.

He throws money at them, that's his solution. I'm not entirely surprised to see that he's worked a a lobbyist; there's no problem that can't be solved with a little green in Washington. But, don't take my work for it, look at his major goals plans:
* For higher education: pluck ~$6,000 dollars from the money tree, and give it to whomever wants it for their first two years of college.
* He's going to combat AIDS by throwing $30 billion/year at some worthless agency or another.
* He's going to give $40 billion more to homeland security.
* He's going to give $40 billion to the various state governments; you know, so they don't have to bother balancing their budget.
* He's also going to "remove barriers for job growth", whatever the fuck that means. All I can see is that he's going to increase environmental laws and legislate worker unions so that they're practically manditory; you know, because the federal government is really just a big workers union (sad, but true).
* He wants to expand healthcare; although he doesn't put a pricetag on it, it's probably 40 billion like eveyrthing else. The guy really likes the number 40 for some reason.
* The guy is FOR affirmative action; you know, because employers shouldn't be allowed to pick the best person for the job.
* He wants to repeal Bush's tax breaks.

I can go on, each and every one of his plans is a spending-plan. I dont think Dean's policy could possibly be much more leftist than his, and everyone seems to think he's too radical; the only real difference between Dean and Clark, is that Dean doesn't pretend his leftist bullshit isn't leftist bullshit.
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Postby Warren » Dec 21, 2003 @ 11:07pm

Oops, made a post... why can't I delete it! Hit the wrong button. Well, might as well say something, here we go-

The average German person knows more about American politics of the 1950s than the average American. - BBC Online
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Postby Maf54 » Dec 21, 2003 @ 11:12pm

I sit in the middle and say I am for affirmative action in such a sense that when two people are the exact same in everything except race you pick the minority. That helps employers anyways because it settles a hard decision automatically. :P
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